"In that scene when they’ve all turned up, pick a POV and stick with it. Who you pick will depend on what story you’re telling in that scene and in the novel as a whole."
That's the key issue, isn't it? Why is one choosing particular points of view and what does it have to do with the story one's telling?
"My tangled brain comes unstuck thinking it has to justify who that voice is, the god/narrator/author, and is there a difference between them, until I read the greats and realise that they demand an acceptance of the premise."
Yes! They know what they're doing and why, and you will see.
Eleanor, thanks for these insightful suggestions. I’m working on a historical novel now and the narrative continues in parallel in two streams, the past and the present. I use first-person narrative in the present and introduce more uncertainty, since the protagonist does not know all. I use third person for the past stream and tell what has happened in reality, in contrast to what the (present) narrator thinks has happened. I found this as a viable method, but since the book is not yet finished, the effect is yet to be seen…
Interesting. Good luck! I remember you asked us early on about the struggle to finish a book, having a few different projects on the go. I’m glad to hear you are now concentrating on one. As my friend Julie Cohen says in her class, first finish the damn book, and then behind the editing….
Extremely helpful advice. Your answer made me realize that I live my life in close third. Perhaps most or all of us do.
In his Theory of Moral Sentiments," Adam Smith called this invisible close third author our "impartial spectator" who passes judgment on our actions and thoughts, past, present and speculative future. Perhaps, it's also the means of slipping from close third to a quasi-omniscience, where we imagine what someone else may be thinking or feeling. I do this all the time, creating hypothetical scenarios.
I live my life in close third, and naturally write from that place too, creating multiple POVs. I do have a novel in a drawer where I attempted a single POV, I'm proud of it, though no publisher wanted it, I'm hoping it'll see the light of day. But importantly, I want to point out, no POV excludes the use of omniscience, that movement through those five positions from God to the subconscious is available whatever POV you're in. (To clarify, I don't think of any of those 5 positions as POV except the interior monologue of conscious thought, though Mary might challenge me on this).
I particularly enjoyed this episode of your series as my work-in-progress novel features four alternating POV. Your comment about perhaps limiting the story to three characters, especially for an emerging writer, ressonated with feedback from a close friend, who said something similar about my novel. It's a horror story and what appealed to me - about using alternating POVs - were the opportunities to build suspense. The characters don't come into contact until the final act, where I had decided I'd then stick to only one POV (and, in a way, turn that character into the main protagonist.)
Anyway... lot's to ponder. Thank you again to you and Mary.
My pleasure! And glad you liked the glasses. They're from the Royal Academy.... Good luck with the novel. You're welcome to come back to us with questions if we can help.
I’m not finished with the video yet (loving it!), but had to stop to note that another author stepping out of the story to address the audience directly is Kurt Vonnegut in “Breakfast of Champions”. It’s zany, chaotic and absolutely brilliant.
Yes of course, and it’s such an arresting moment when done well. The book I’m reading at the moment also employs it well, @Samuél Lopez-Barrantes The Requisitions.
"In that scene when they’ve all turned up, pick a POV and stick with it. Who you pick will depend on what story you’re telling in that scene and in the novel as a whole."
That's the key issue, isn't it? Why is one choosing particular points of view and what does it have to do with the story one's telling?
"My tangled brain comes unstuck thinking it has to justify who that voice is, the god/narrator/author, and is there a difference between them, until I read the greats and realise that they demand an acceptance of the premise."
Yes! They know what they're doing and why, and you will see.
Yes, I think that’s the key issue. I always return to ‘What’s it about?’ . The answer to that generally leads the way to answering most questions.
Eleanor, thanks for these insightful suggestions. I’m working on a historical novel now and the narrative continues in parallel in two streams, the past and the present. I use first-person narrative in the present and introduce more uncertainty, since the protagonist does not know all. I use third person for the past stream and tell what has happened in reality, in contrast to what the (present) narrator thinks has happened. I found this as a viable method, but since the book is not yet finished, the effect is yet to be seen…
Interesting. Good luck! I remember you asked us early on about the struggle to finish a book, having a few different projects on the go. I’m glad to hear you are now concentrating on one. As my friend Julie Cohen says in her class, first finish the damn book, and then behind the editing….
Eleanor,
Extremely helpful advice. Your answer made me realize that I live my life in close third. Perhaps most or all of us do.
In his Theory of Moral Sentiments," Adam Smith called this invisible close third author our "impartial spectator" who passes judgment on our actions and thoughts, past, present and speculative future. Perhaps, it's also the means of slipping from close third to a quasi-omniscience, where we imagine what someone else may be thinking or feeling. I do this all the time, creating hypothetical scenarios.
I live my life in close third, and naturally write from that place too, creating multiple POVs. I do have a novel in a drawer where I attempted a single POV, I'm proud of it, though no publisher wanted it, I'm hoping it'll see the light of day. But importantly, I want to point out, no POV excludes the use of omniscience, that movement through those five positions from God to the subconscious is available whatever POV you're in. (To clarify, I don't think of any of those 5 positions as POV except the interior monologue of conscious thought, though Mary might challenge me on this).
Love your glasses, Eleanor!
I particularly enjoyed this episode of your series as my work-in-progress novel features four alternating POV. Your comment about perhaps limiting the story to three characters, especially for an emerging writer, ressonated with feedback from a close friend, who said something similar about my novel. It's a horror story and what appealed to me - about using alternating POVs - were the opportunities to build suspense. The characters don't come into contact until the final act, where I had decided I'd then stick to only one POV (and, in a way, turn that character into the main protagonist.)
Anyway... lot's to ponder. Thank you again to you and Mary.
My pleasure! And glad you liked the glasses. They're from the Royal Academy.... Good luck with the novel. You're welcome to come back to us with questions if we can help.
Thanks so much. :)
“If you notice a temptation to switch, ask yourself if you're running from the heat.” YES!! Brilliant!
Establishing multiple first person narrators sounds challenging in the extreme. Why would one even attempt this?
For an ensemble piece, but I would do it in 3rd person & have a lead character
I like the retort about VW. :)
This is an excellent investigation and I like how your starting point is the unknown - playing around before learning and then investigating examples.
I’m not finished with the video yet (loving it!), but had to stop to note that another author stepping out of the story to address the audience directly is Kurt Vonnegut in “Breakfast of Champions”. It’s zany, chaotic and absolutely brilliant.
Yep!
Yes of course, and it’s such an arresting moment when done well. The book I’m reading at the moment also employs it well, @Samuél Lopez-Barrantes The Requisitions.